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How Do Hurt Gud?

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2024-06-11 10:13:14

Forenote

Threw this together in about 30 minutes. I've done a lot of testing though so I think the information is mostly accurate (source in the next section) if it's readable enough to you. Intention was mostly about speed of figuring out the important stuff anyway. When in doubt, STACC it out.

SOURCE: The List Of Formulas And Errata

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UgH21dSoJdDDm-O-o3UcSZSM8Eo45QRNU8mcRqZpzCk/edit?usp=sharing

Hopefully Steam doesn't ruin the link. Otherwise you'll have to go to Discord. Seriously, it's a very helpful place with many helpful resources. Including a very nice BUILD PLANNER. (This is said planner: https://berated-bert.github.io/siralim-planner/ )

How Hurt Gud? (Quick Section)

For attacks and spells, you want raw stats. They're WAY better than focusing on %damage bonuses, trust me. You need to get past enemy defense before %damage even does anything.

For indirect, raw stats are fine too, but the better method of boosting THAT is typically to use a lot of %damage (so the opposite of attacks/spells). Reason being that, for indirect, defense comes AFTER %damage is applied.

^ There are a lot of different methods of indirect damage though, so it isn't strictly about %damage specifically. e.g. Pyromancer likes to just spam Inferno and then use Raze (Inferno multiplies Burning, which deals 'sourceless' indirect, Raze deals SPELL damage). Sourced indirect typically says "this creature deals" in a trait or something. Sourceless is usually things like debuffs. Main thing to remember about that, is that sourced loves it when your creatures "deal" X% more damage, and sourceless indirect likes it when "enemies TAKE" X% more damage (BTW, Emerald Paragon says "deal", but is actually creatures "TAKE" % more, so that works on sourceless).

IMPORTANT NOTE: For attacks and spells, things that say you deal "additional damage" are also quite strong because "additional" damage ignores enemy defense and %damage reduction. Note that some traits say "additional" but don't do this for entirely arbitrary reasons... Would be a good idea to check the list of Errata for details on which traits are like this if you're not sure.

How Damage Works (Math Section)

Bear with me on the math. These numbers aren't strictly how it works as many effects arbitrarily do things differently in this game (especially Angels; don't even ask).

Attack damage:

ATK - DEF = unmodifiedDamage ; If it's less than 1% of ATK, it gets set to 1% of ATK instead (AKA the minimum dmg)

helpfulModifiers = (%more damage + %more damage + ...)

badModifiers = %less damage x %less damage x ...

unmodifiedDamage x helpfulModifiers x badModifiers = damage

^ This means dealing 50% more damage as well as 100% more damage and 50% less and 60% less, with 1500 ATK vs 1000 DEF, is:

1500 - 1000 = 500

500 x (100% base damage + 50% + 100%) = 500 x (2.5) = 1250

1250 x (50% less AKA x0.5) x (60% less AKA x0.4) = 625 x 0.4 = 250 damage

^ with 800 ATK vs 100000000000000000 DEF:

800 - 100000000000000000 = a LOT less than 0, so 1% of ATK instead AKA 800 x 0.01 = 8

8 x (2.5) = 20

20 x (0.5) x (0.4) = 20 x (0.2) = 4 damage

Spell damage:

This works the same way as attack damage, with key differences. There is no minimum raw value to the power, there's innate DEF penetration (this just reduces the 'DEF' in the math by a % amount), and the amount of INT used varies based on potency (also it's not always INT that gets used). Even MORE importantly, "potency" and "spell damage" multipliers are part of the modifiers section, EXCEPT enchantment-based potency, AKA specifically Cascading, Singular, and Magnetic. These multiply the INT given by the base potency BEFORE defense, which makes a huge difference.

^ 1000 INT vs 1000 DEF, we'll just say moderate is 100% instead of what it actually is for cleaner numbers, and it penetrates 10% of DEF.

Without Magnetic:

1000 INT - (1000 x 0.9) = 1000 - 900 = 100 damage (with 200% more and 50% less dmg: 150)

1000 INT - (1200 DEF x 0.9) = 1000 - 1080 = 0 damage (with 200% more, still 0 damage)

With 6 copies all enchanted with generous:

(1000 INT x (100% base + 15% magnetic x 36 copies)) - (1000 x 0.9)

= 1000 x 640% - 900 = 6400 - 900 = 5500 damage

1000 INT vs 1200 DEF = 6400 - 1080 = 5320 damage

WARNING: Magnetic potency is deleted by potency changes like "potency based on health" or the rare Mogwai creature.

Indirect Damage:

This one is way different from the other two. This one applies %modifiers BEFORE defense, making %damage WAY more effective on it (both positive AND negative). It also ignores 80% of enemy defense. FYI Gate of the Gods has a hidden -65% indirect damage taken modifier that it never mentions anywhere which hurts it a LOT...

IndirectDmg = (base x modifiers) - DEF

^ Dragon Queen with 1000 SPD deals 250 (yes, 250, not 300; it's actually 25% of speed in damage despite telling you 30%). We'll assume you deal 400% more and 50% less damage. vs 1000 DEF

iDmg x ((100% base + 400% more) x 50% less) - (1000 DEF x 0.2)

= 250 x (250%) - (200) = 625 - 200 = 425 damage (without the 50% less, it's 1050 damage)

How Do Big Stats? (Quick-ish Section)

Things that say your creatures gain X% stats "at the start of battle" or that they "start battles with" X% more stats are the best way to scale your stats quickly. Things that say your creatures 'have' X% more stats, like Krakens, are also helpful for winning quickly (which matters in a grind game). You normally want to pick ONE stat and use that stat for everything while scaling the hell out of it.

HEALTH:

This is the most busted stat in the game. Scaling this super high is very easy with traits like Divine Form + Solace, and you can use things like Giant traits, spell enchantments, or Bloodmage perks to base all your damage etc off of HP. Absolutely ridiculous and I actually recommend NOT using this as it can get very boring (and I say this as someone who mained it for 2000+ depth; I had more fun before Bloodmage).

ATTACK:

This is generally the least useful stat in the game unless you're playing as Hellknight. It only does one thing, and that thing can often fail for various reasons (mostly a stupid dodge mod that HK has the Dreadnaught perk for). I like this stat because SMACC isn't loved enough in late game.

Recommendation: Mauler Fiend as the 2nd parent, Imposter Syndrome on artifact; OR use Fiend but with Whetted Bones on the artifact as well as Divine Form somewhere on the team (maybe you've already noticed, but it's a super versatile trait you'll see a lot for stat stacking teams)

INTELLIGENCE:

Probably the most versatile stat though not necessarily the strongest (potency conversion exists). Most of your power here will come from abusing enchantments (magnetic especially) and spells that are just inherently dumb (e.g. Holy Blast + Warp Reality on a target is lethal nearly 100% of the time). Stacking this can involve going sorcery for Divine Form (yep, again), and for occultist traits and the many other great casting stuff sorcery has, or going life for things like Vulpes and ophans which are quite good for casting as well (the "cast life as if you have 100% more INT" Ophan is just as effective as divine form, actually, as it multiplies rather than being an actual 'have'; same for the equivalent lich and death spells).

DEFENSE:

Play Siegemaster. If not using Siegemaster then at least use Exalted Detriment to give additional damage on your attacks (AKA the thing that ignores defense and %reduction). At depth 415+ you can start getting siegemaster annointments to make it easier to use other specs with DEF stacking. With THIS stat, for various reasons, scaling it SUPER high is more important than for the others, so BOOST it and hold nothing back. Pit Guards and The Lost are crazy strong together, Divine Form, 2 of the Forsakens...

SPEED:

This one needs SoB gains more than any others, because half its value comes from initiative which is literally only affected before the battle has started. Scaling your speed in-battle won't give you more critical damage if your speed is already higher than that of the enemy you're hitting; the game's wording on this is misleading. So any speed you get after the battle starts is purely for things you based explicitly on your speed, like Dragon Queen's trait & any spells you enchanted with it etc.

Important Notes On BIG STATS

There are 3 main types of stat boosting:

-Start-of-Battle (SoB)

-In-battle Gains

-'Have' bonuses

~SoB gains:

These are EXCLUSIVELY things that say your creatures start battles with or your creatures gain X% stats at the start of battle. Arbiters are explicitly "after" SoB effects so they don't count, they're in-battle.

BENEFITS:

-SoB gains can't be prevented

-SoB gains multiply the BASE value (which also bumps the diminishing returns cap)

-SoB gains multiplying the base ALSO means they multiply each other for EXPONENTIAL gains

CONS:

-They don't boost SoB debuff applications

-They can't be multiplied by things like Love Giveth, because SoB is a synergy void where triggers can't happen and most things, like Love Giveth, are on-trigger bonuses

~'Have' stats:

These are things that say your creatures 'have' or this creature 'has' X% more stats.

BENEFITS:

-Active IMMEDIATELY, and thus they apply to SoB debuffs

-They're not reduced by the diminishing returns cap

CONS:

-They're additive with each other

-They read the BASE value, but don't increase it, thus diminishing returns is reached sooner

~In-battle gains:

These are the stat gains you ACTUALLY see in the combat history's log. They're the things that trigger a gain of X% stats after performing an action, or the things you get from spells (including spells cast at the start of battle, as those aren't "pure" SoB gains but rather the result of an action).

BENEFITS:

-Can keep using them forever

-Usually quite large and a number of these effects scale very quickly

CONS:

-Affected by diminishing returns

-Can be countered, which happens VERY often

DIMINISHING RETURNS:

After reaching 500% of the base value in a stat, further gains in that stat are reduced based on how far beyond that 500% you've gone. Since SoB gains boost the BASE values, they're unaffected. 'Have' stats are just kinda there, so they can't trigger any loss and thus aren't affected either. Only in-battle gains are thus effected by this cap. Usually it's not worth worrying about, but can be relevant in some cases.

Special Things

Some things are special, like things that don't rely on your own stats.

Witch Doctor's entire theme is using enemies' stats against themselves. The Holy Blast + Warp Reality spell combo does this as well. Mangle bases its damage off of what Bleeding would normally do, which is based on enemy HP.

Exponential loops are something based on stats but also kinda special. For a heal-loop, you basically just increase your %healing received and use one of the Sanctuses along with something like Nephilim Cleric to share healing back and forth as it gets re-multiplied over and over again, and this can lead to scientific notation levels of healing even if the first heal was small. Paired with Omnipotent Deity+Rise Above and/or Abnegation, this can easily lead to numbers far too large for any enemies you'll face in your lifetime to handle. Burning can be scaled like this just by spamming Inferno (spell) or Stoke (efreet trait).

BOTH of these strategies can benefit from enemies taking %more damage, but normally only the things based on enemy stats are the ones you'd need it for and for the loops it'd only be a drop in the bucket. Reducing their defense helps as well. In the case of the Ravish loop (2 Sparktail Officers on your team, they hit each other, it loops), you want low defense, a decent starting damage value, and a LOT of %more damage taken by your team.

INSTANT KILL:

Bosses are immune to this, so unfortunately this is only a niche for clearing normal enemies faster (neat though; consider playing Defiler with master of abominations and giving Centaur Raider's trait to a Wandering Abomination).

TL;DR

For builds that care about their own stats:

-Stack stats as much as possible, especially SoB gains ('have' stats for debuff builds)

-Reducing enemy stats and/or ignoring defense too

-For spells, abuse magnetic too if it has a potency ('small', 'moderate', etc), but NOT with "potency based on health/speed/attack/defense" enchantments (they delete magnetic's effect for some reason)

-For indirect that's dealt by your creatures instead of things like debuffs AKA 'sourced' indirect, abuse %damage increased dealt by allies type stuff

-Additional damage is strong due to ignoring defense and %damage reduction when attached to attacks and spells; usually most needed in attack builds but not 100% necessary

For builds that don't:

-Abuse whatever special mechanics you need

-Maybe use things that reduce enemy defense specifically

-Increase %damage taken by enemies (and Emerald Paragon's wording is wrong; it's "take" more not "deal" more damage)

Source: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3265273280

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